If you’re looking for a tiny house, is it best to build your own, buy a pre-made house or find one to renovate? Are tiny home renovations a good idea? In this week’s episode tiny house specialist Ethan Waldman joins me to discuss these questions and more.

KM: Ethan, I really appreciate you coming on to the show. I’m fascinated by tiny houses and I mean, people must renovate their tiny houses too, right? So I would love to hear about that. At this point, people have been living in tiny houses what, like 20 or so years?

EW: Sure. I mean probably longer, but as we think of it today as the modern tiny house movement, yeah, probably around the turn of the century, around 2000. 

KM: Wow. That was 20 years ago already.

EW: I know. I think I just blew my own mind a little bit.

KM: Turn of the century, wow yeah. So I guess first tell me a little bit about what you do. Obviously you have a lot of information that’s helping people build and maintain their own tiny houses. What’s your mission? 

EW: So I really see myself as first and foremost an educator, a tiny house educator, and secondly, an advocate. I built my own tiny house on wheels back in 2012, a little bit before the movement had gotten really popular and started writing, starting putting out content and then just really responded to a big need that I saw mainly in the form of just questions that I got. People were just so curious and there’s a real DIY spirit to this movement. So people who have never built anything are attempting to build their own houses. So they really need a more basic or a more foundational education about, you know, what is a building envelope, what is a heating system, all these decisions – different kinds of insulation, different types of framing, different types of shells, all these things that a contractor wouldn’t even think about. You know, people who are starting from zero knowledge as I did when I built my tiny house, they need a lot more. My background is actually in adult education, so I kind of leveraged the experience that I had building my own tiny house and started just putting together friendly, approachable content for people to learn more about how to plan, build and live tiny.

KM: Well, that’s great, cause people do need especially approachable information, cause sometimes it just gets overwhelming with the technicality of it all. So that’s a great service that you offer. So are you right now in a tiny house? 

EW: Right now I’m in a tiny condo. My wife and I don’t live full-time in our tiny anymore, mainly because the city that we’d really like to live in isn’t very tiny friendly. But we’re in about a 700 square foot condo. It’s the most terrible layout, I would say half of it is a hallway. So like it’s a tiny house in its own right. 

KM: You want to keep in shape so you can just jump right back in if you… But they’re very cute, they seem really manageable. They seem like if you’ve never built anything before, it seems like they look like you could build one, until you go to build one. 

EW: Right. Well, I would say that a tiny house is actually, I think it’s actually harder. It’s a harder build than a bigger structure. It’s a shorter build because there’s not as much of it. So, you know, each phase, putting up the siding takes less time because there’s less siding to put up. But if you’re building a tiny home that you intend to live full-time in, it still has all those systems. It’s got electrical, it’s got plumbing, it’s got heating, cooling, refrigeration, cooking, toilet, plumbing, just everything. And you’re trying to fit those systems into a much smaller space. So actually planning out the systems, figuring out where they go, where your plumbing lines are going to run, they’re the kinds of things that in a bigger project, again, we don’t have to sweat those details quite as much because there’s plenty of space. Like the plumber will decide where the plumbing lines go, the electrician will drill some holes through studs. But in a tiny house, like my front wall of my tiny house, where the front door is, the way it’s framed, it was essentially impossible to pass electrical wires through the framing in this one spot where basically the king studs for the window and doors met the slope of the roof and created this just like solid corner. And like I didn’t want to drill through it because it was pretty structural. So you don’t run into things like that in a bigger project. 

KM: True. There’s a little more void, it’s not so packed with lumber. Well, so have you been seeing a lot of people trying to renovate tiny houses? Do they buy them off of aging free spirits who have decided to give it up?

EW: I’ve seen some renovations. I would say that there are a couple of different kinds of renovations that I’m seeing. The first is kind of the more unfortunate kind, which is that, you know, tiny houses are starting to build a reputation for having moisture issues if they’re not properly insulated and have a proper vapor barrier set up. So what you’re seeing is people are finding mold and water damage from condensation and having to rip out cabinets, rip out walls, rip out floors and repair damage. Not so much renovation as just repairs. But I’ve definitely seen- my one notable example is this woman, Macy Miller, who’s also kind of an early tiny house blogger. She was kind of around the same time as me, sharing her story at her website, which is I think minimotives.org. It might be.com, we can check on that. Her tiny house originally, so it’s built on a gooseneck trailer and it had essentially a covered porch. It was a shed roof, and so the shed continued out and then the front door was there and then a porch continued. So she kind of had this porch. And then she had a second child and her partner moved in with her. So they actually turned that porch space into interior space. So that was a renovation that they did, they added a few feet to their tiny house. 

KM: Wow. Which is actually a pretty big percentage of the tiny house. 

EW: Yeah, exactly. Like I tell people, the question of whether to put and how big of a shower or tub do you want to put in your tiny house, you might laugh, but you know, a 36 inch by 36 inch shower stall in terms of square footage is an actual percentage of your overall floor plan.

KM: So what’s the standard size, would you say? I mean, I know there’s no standard size, but if people are still taking them on the road, there are certain measurements that are… 

EW: Yeah. So for moving on the road in the United States, there are some numbers that most people try to kind of stay within, and that is 13 and a half feet tall from the ground to the peak of the roof, then eight and a half feet wide at its widest. Usually that is your drip edge to drip edge, you know, your eaves. And that makes for a very skinny, long structure. Many houses are now going a little over width in many states. And this is the frustrating thing about the US is that the laws are different in every state. For towing, they’re different in every state, but then actual building codes and regulations go down to the city level. In most States, you are able to go over width by a certain amount and it’s not that big of a deal for towing. You know, for example, in Vermont you can go up to I think 10 and a half feet. You have to self-register through the department of motor vehicles online, you pay like 35 bucks or something and they want you off the road by dark. So adding that extra couple of feet of width actually makes a huge difference in terms of just what you can do on the layout. The house is kind of long and narrow, so it can be difficult to create like those kind of L shaped spaces where people can sit and face each other and kind of talk, and that the house can tend to become kind of this long tunnel. So going a little wider can help that a lot. I’m not seeing people go over height often because that’s a pretty hard- like the 13 and a half foot bridge ain’t moving. To answer your question about size, when I built mine in 2012, it is on a 22 foot trailer, but the house actually stops a little bit before the end of the trailer, and then there’s a covered porch. So it’s about twenty by seven and a half on the inside. And that was actually on the bigger side at the time. Now my tiny house is really tiny and we’re mostly seeing houses more in the 26 to 30 foot range.

KM: Oh, I’m surprised to hear that it would be that long. Cause that, I mean, at some point don’t you cross the line into something different than a tiny house? Like 30 feet is almost as long as a, what would you call it? A permanent house, like a house that can’t move, a non-mobile house. 

EW: Yeah. I mean, the extra length allows people to do things like put in full sized kitchens, full size, I mean, I’m using full size in air quotes, but at least use full size appliances. Whereas like my house, the range is an RV range, so it’s only like 18 inches deep. The fridge is a tiny little built-in fridge. But people are able to go a little bit bigger. It gives people more options for storage, putting in laundry, putting in amenities that make the house a little more livable. and I’m really not seeing people move their tiny houses all that often. I mean, there are people who move them quite frequently, but the majority of tiny home dwellers are not moving all that often. I can use myself as an example, you know, I built the tiny house in a couple of different locations, so it moved a couple of times throughout the build and the build lasted 14 months. Then once the build was done, I found a site to rent that was about eight miles from where the build was. So it moved to the site in 2013 and it stayed there until last year, June of 2020, the land changed hands and the new owners asked us to move the tiny house. And so the house moved for the first time in seven years. The wheels of course allow- you know, if my house was on a foundation, moving it would be a lot harder. But I do think that as these tiny houses get bigger, we start to kind of say, okay, are we losing the benefit of the mobility when we go this big? Because I’m at about 10,000 pounds and I don’t own a vehicle that can tow my tiny house. Luckily I live in Vermont where there are a lot of people, farmers who have trucks and are very friendly and willing to help out.

KM: You just have to knock on their door, you see a truck in the yard. 

EW: Yeah I mean, isn’t that some truck guy’s greatest dream?

KM: I would think, yeah.

EW: Can you come tow my 10,000 pound trailer? They’re like, yes. I’ve been waiting for this day. But once you’re above 10,000 pounds, in some states you’re technically supposed to have a commercial driver’s license to move a load that heavy. I’m a big advocate for hiring a driver. There are lots of transport companies that can do this. It is quite a bit more expensive to have your house professionally towed, but you also are getting insurance essentially with that. So, you know, they are responsible for anything that happens to your house or to others while it moves down the road, not you.

KM: Do you mind if I ask you some stupid questions? As a house is going down the highway at 50 miles an hour, it’s essentially, like the forces that are on it because it’s moving all around, and then also the wind, 50 mile an hour wind.

EW: It’s a hurricane and an earthquake at the same time. 

KM: Yeah. So to me, it seems like that would – that really made me nervous when I was working on these rooms with these other guys. They didn’t seem to be as concerned as I was, but I felt like you really have to design for that and engineer it so that it can joggle all around if joggle’s a word. So how do people deal with that? Especially people who are just doing it for the first time themselves.

EW: Luckily we really haven’t seen tiny houses moving down the road and falling apart. I mean, who knows, that could’ve started happening. I’m sure if they were made out of stone or concrete, they might. But you know, a wood frame structure does tend to be kind of able to absorb that kind of stress, but of course, any good set of tiny house plans will call out using basically hurricane strapping, like as if you were building a house in a high wind zone. So using, one brand is Simpson strong-ties, they’re kind of a popular brand. So tying your floor system to the trailer with, usually people use a threaded rod, threaded bolts. And the tiny house trailers are now coming with threaded bolts kind of pre-welded into position so that you can just drill holes in your floor joists and just bolt the floor on. And then again, metal clips to tie your wall system to the floor, the rafters to the wall, et cetera, et cetera. You’re supposed to use tempered glass. RVs use tempered glass, it’s the same way that the glass in your windshield is tempered, so it’s not gonna explode if it gets broken. And then for really frequent travel, particularly the windows that are going to face front and get like a lot of maybe stones, chips, things from the road is like either shutters or just basically boarding up your window as if a hurricane was coming, you know, putting a piece of plywood over your window.

KM: That makes total sense because things are going to be popping off the road and will break your window probably. Okay, my second stupid question is when you get there and let’s say you’re going to stay for two years or something like that. Do you then put the whole trailer onto a foundation system? Cause obviously the tires, seems like those would go flat. 

EW: I’ll say one more thing about towing before we get there, is that another thing that people always have problems with – and when I moved my tiny house, I was holding my breath – is that these utility trailers tend not to come with the greatest tires. They don’t come with really high quality tires. And so people get their new trailer, they pull into position, they build their house on it and then it sits for five years, and then they go to move it and they end up getting blow outs on the road, which sucks. So one thing that I advise in my guide, tiny house decisions is if you’re going to do a long journey in your house and your tires have been sitting, it sucks, it hurts to buy four new tires because they’re not cheap tires, but put on new tires and grease your bearings. Because that’s another thing, the one hour journey turns into a day long journey because you had to sit on the side of the road and wait for AAA to come. Okay, so once you get there do you put your house on some kind of foundation system? Ideally, yes. Depending on what kind of utilities your house has built in versus what you need to hook up to, you’re going to need some infrastructure on site. Most tiny houses use a compost toilet, so they don’t require a way to dispose of that kind of waste. However, most tiny houses produce at least gray water. And some places do allow you to discharge gray water either onto the ground or into some kind of gray water system. But you’re gonna need to figure out where your water goes. If you need power, you’re gonna need to hook up to that. And then if you need water coming in, in a lot of places it’s quite difficult to get water into your tiny house, unless it’s coming up from a pipe in the ground, because you’ve got the issue of freezing. 

KM: Yeah. That seems like a lot to think through. Are there things like RV parks for tiny houses? 

EW: A lot of RV parks are allowing tiny houses to park there and in a way it’s… You know, tiny homes don’t like to think of themselves as RVs, and they’re definitely not the same thing. You know, RVs, recreational vehicle, right there in the name. They’re designed for temporary use. But RV parks tend to have the exact infrastructure that a tiny house would need. They’ve got a concrete pad, so you don’t have to worry about your house sinking and getting unlevel. They’ve got plumbing hookups, electrical hookups, everything is kind of there for you. But from a privacy perspective and aesthetic perspective, RV parks aren’t always what, you know, tiny house dwellers kind of think of.

KM: Yeah, they don’t seem that compatible. 

EW: Right. And we are seeing some people are buying up RV parks and turning them into tiny house parks. 

KM: Okay. But then you still have really close neighbors and to me, the image of being at a lake side site all alone, like that’s not really…

EW: Yeah. I think the image of being at a Lakeside site all alone is certainly more the exception than the rule in real life tiny house living. And not everybody wants that. I mean, a lot of tiny houses end up parking in the backyard of another house. Because your space is small and there are certain things about it that are limited, be it maybe you don’t have a tub or even a shower. You probably don’t have, I mean, now a lot of them have laundry, but mine doesn’t have laundry. So you actually need to connect with your very local community, as in your neighbors quite a bit more when you’re living in a tiny house. And, and a lot of people say that that is actually really a big benefit of living tiny because it connects them to the people around them. 

KM: So you can rent, let’s say your neighbor or somebody could put the infrastructure they need in their house so they could accommodate and rent that to a tiny house, and then the tiny house person lives out there. 

EW: Yeah, the dream is, you know, we face a housing shortage across the country and in these cities- I mean, I’m in Burlington, Vermont, it’s a perfect example. The cost of houses here have gone up so much that you can’t really afford to buy a house here if you work like a normal job. So there are all these neighborhoods that have empty space that could be infilled. And so here’s the dream is like, let somebody who wants to rent their backyard to a tiny house family or couple or single person. They can get some rental income, we’ve added housing where there was none before. And it tends to be not transient, you know, it’s people who want to be somewhere and be a part of the community. 

KM: Right. So they’re there for years, not a couple weeks. How do local zoning codes mesh with all that idea? 

EW: It’s a mess. 

KM: Yeah, I can imagine.

EW: It’s a total mess. So let’s get into it. So you’ve got zoning that controls like how you can use the land, what can you put where, and then you’ve got building code, safety. And tiny houses can run afoul and often do run afoul of both. And so there is an effort, there are multiple efforts underway, and I think that what I see happening is that they’re going to start to coalesce. But in 2018, a group of tiny house advocates successfully wrote an appendix for the 2018 IRC international residential code. 

KM: I saw that. That’s good, that’s a step in the right direction.

EW: Look, you’ve got your IRC book right there. Oof, that is thick. So yeah, appendix Q is what it’s called and it actually sets up some code guidelines for houses under 400 square feet. It does not apply to houses on wheels though. 

KM: So this is just a little like an ADU, basically. 

EW: Yeah, in a way. But it’s seen as kind of the first step because it would allow- So right now there’s an effort underway because each state has to vote to adopt the latest version of the IRC. It doesn’t just automatically disseminate everywhere. 

KM: That’s true. Like in Massachusetts, we’re just on 2015.

EW: Exactly. And there are some places that are still on like 2008. So it’s seen as a first step or that it makes it easier for a municipality to adopt that language and then amend it to allow for wheels. And some municipalities are deciding, okay, you know, you’ve got to put the trailer up on blocks, you’ve got to take the wheels off and you’ve got to put up a skirting so that you can’t see the trailer, that kind of thing. Kind of make it look like it’s attached to the ground. So that’s on the residential and ADU side of things. On the other side of things, there is a body, a certification body for RVs that has existed since the fifties. It’s called ANSI American. American National Standards Institute. And they have a safety code that applies for RVs and park models. And so these codes are actually a bit better suited to tiny houses because they address the fact that the house can move, they address the moveability and they address fire safety in a smaller space. Now, the codes aren’t, you know, the size of the egress window required in an RV is smaller than the size of an egress window that’s required in a residential home. So are the codes as strong? Maybe not, but what we’re seeing happening is, there’ve been a couple of prominent examples of, you know, the city of Los Angeles, not the county, but the city of Los Angeles has actually said tiny houses on wheels can be used as ADUs as long as they are RV certified. And so a lot of the professional tiny house builders are going toward getting their builds certified as RVs. There’s an effort underway to create an RV code that is specifically for tiny houses, rather than trying to shoehorn the tiny house into the RV or the park model code. And, you know, I tend to agree that once that happens, once there’s like an actual tiny house code, that more municipalities are going to jump on it that way. But those codes don’t address at all things like wastewater, lot coverage. These are all decisions and challenges that each city will face and have to deal with.

KM: Yeah, and that could take a while. I mean, zoning changes take a long time, it seems like. 

EW: Yeah. So what you’re mostly seeing is that people are just for better or for worse living illegally in their tiny houses. And for most people nothing bad ever happens, you know, for some people they get a zoning violation and get asked to move.

KM: So that’s not that bad, relatively speaking. If somebody wanted a tiny house, obviously they can build it themselves or they can buy one that, as you said, went through the professional tiny house manufacturers are making, or they could buy one a used one and renovate it to suit themselves. So those are the three options, basically. Do you see people in retirement doing it, or is it mostly still young people?

EW: It’s actually mostly people in retirement.

KM: Really? Seriously? They sleep in those lofts? Cause I don’t think I’d want to sleep up there. 

EW: Well, so there’s a couple of things. I mean, most people are moving away from the sleeping loft, or if they are doing a sleeping loft, they are using a very compact staircase to get up to that loft rather than a ladder. The ladder access loft is not convenient. It’s not fun. It’s one of the things about my tiny house that I wish I could change. If I could go back, I would not do that. 

KM: Hmm. Yeah, that would be hard if you actually had to keep getting up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, let’s say.

EW: Exactly. But what we’re seeing really is that, you know, younger people like me, I was like 26 when I started on my project, and I’m 36 now. The younger folks are tending to build them, maybe live in them for a couple of years and then kind of move on to a bigger house. And the Boomers, the people who are retiring are tending to be looking at tiny houses as a way to retire sooner or just a way to retire at all. And they’re really talking about, like, this is going to be my house that I’m going to age in place in this tiny house. So it’s a more long term solution. 

KM: Interesting. As I mentioned, I live in Massachusetts, so we don’t have- Let’s just say where I live, because it’s right next to Cambridge so it’s pretty dense, we don’t have enough room even for tiny houses in most yards. So I don’t see any around here. doesn’t mean that they aren’t happening, but I mean, I have heard that some people are living in the yard of their own house, but that’s more of like an ADU, I think. But you could get a tiny house and bring it in there and then rent your big house out to a young family who needs the space. To me, it’s a pretty interesting idea. And maybe it’s because those photographs are so, they give it this romantic sort of air to the whole thing and, you know, outdoor dining with the colored glass and everything and the meadow picked flowers and stuff.

EW: Right. Well, as someone who also lives in New England, you know that only exists like two months of the year. 

KM: Yeah, and then one of those months has really bad mosquitoes. But it looks nice. You kind of forget that somehow. But yeah, that would be another thing too, is the climate would be a challenge.

EW: Yes. A more temperate climate, like the Pacific Northwest and Northern California there are a lot more tiny houses because it’s a lot easier to live in a tiny house there because you can pretty much count on being able to be outside much, much more of the year. So you can set up more outdoor living spaces, outdoor kitchen, essentially an outdoor living room if you want to. Whereas again, like here in Vermont, that might be useful three, four months of the year. 

KM: Yeah. Otherwise you’ll have to build an ice palace outside, like they have in Quebec or somewhere. 

EW: Yeah. And Massachusetts has been kind of not super progressive on tiny houses. And it’s understandable. I mean, Boston, Cambridge, it’s very kind of dense old city. I couldn’t imagine towing a tiny house into Boston.

KM: No, I can’t either. Or even down the road here in Arlington, that would be, people would not be nice about it. It would be stressful. They don’t even allow RV parking around in a lot of these towns near where I am. Okay, I have one more question for you. So if I were a person who didn’t want to build it myself and I didn’t want to buy a totally new one and I wanted to save some money, would I save some money if I just bought a used one and, you know, quote unquote fixed it up myself, so renovated it. I mean, why would anybody renovate one versus buy a new one? Just because they can make it their own? Or what do you think? 

EW: Right. So right now, as you’re probably aware, the cost of building materials has just skyrocketed. So everything is a little bit bonkers right now. And the cost of buying a new tiny house has gone up a lot just simply because the material costs have gone up a lot. I think right now you certainly could save money if the person who’s selling the tiny house is kind of pricing it based off of maybe what they spent on it rather than what would it cost to build this now. We’re not seeing tiny houses, they’re not appreciating assets. The thing that appreciates about a house is more the land that it sits on than the house itself. So tiny houses are maybe holding their value or depreciating more like RVs and cars than appreciating like, like houses. So you can certainly get one, you can get a deal. You can certainly find deals on used ones, but in my opinion, it’s kind of a buyer beware situation. Particularly if it was built by novices, it can be really difficult to know what’s behind the walls. Did they do the electrical wiring themselves, or did they hire an electrician? All these safety things. So if I was buying a used tiny house, I would really want to at least say, Hey, do you have pictures from when it was under construction? Can I see the build photos? And then I’m not a pro, I would probably hire an electrician to look at the photos and say like, yeah, it looks like they did the wiring well, I would hire a plumber, I would really scrutinize the photos. And then even buying a used tiny house that was built by a professional builder, there’ve been so many builders who are kind of fly by night operations that build a few tiny houses and then disappear because people have complained or because they didn’t work that well. And so I would, if I was buying a used tiny house from a builder, I would definitely try to find other people who worked with that builder and try to just check them out and make sure that they’re reputable.

KM: So it sounds like you would be a little bit cautious about buying a used tiny house. 

EW: I would definitely be a bit cautious about buying it used. Again, not saying it’s not possible, but kind of buyer beware.

KM: Sounds like maybe you should gut, like you should just take out all of the interior finishes and kind of look at everything. So it’s almost like building it again. 

EW: You could hire a building inspector to inspect it before you purchase it, somebody who’s going to come do a blower door test or, you know, they have that thing that they can stick into the wall and check the moisture content of the wood, you know, all those kinds of things. I would do that. But from a renovation standpoint, if the shell is good and well-built and you just want to change the inside, that’s very doable. It’s a small space, it’s going to be difficult to move the bathroom from one side of the house to the other, just because of the plumbing line. But if you’re going to keep the layout the same and maybe put up new finishes, new walls, new trim, new cabinets, have at it. And you’ll have a chance to see what’s behind those walls when you do it. 

KM: Yeah. Which sounds like you might want to, especially with the mold and water issues and things. Well, How can people get in touch with you? I mean, you have your podcast. 

EW: I do, the tiny house lifestyle podcast. And that’s in all the places that you get podcasts. But my website is thetinyhouse.net. And so that’s where you’ll find things like my guide, tiny house decisions, you’ll find the podcast. I’ve been writing a blog for years and years. So there are a lot of, kind of meaty how-to type articles, how to pick a tiny house trailer, how to find parking for your tiny house. All those kind of basics are pretty well covered on the blog. 

KM: Yeah. You have a ton of information on your website and on your podcast. How many episodes of that podcast do you have? 

EW: As of this Friday, I will publish episode 158. So it’s been a weekly show for just over three years. There’s a huge backlog of information on the podcast. So if you’re a tiny house super fan, I would say just start with episode one and go for it.

KM: Yeah. And pretty much any question you might have is answered I would say between your website and your blog. 

EW:  I would hope so. 

KM: Thanks for sharing all that with the world and for coming on and talking to me and my listeners.

EW: You’re welcome Katherine, it was really fun. 

KM: I don’t know if I’ll ever live in a tiny house, but I like to think about it. 

EW: Even if you’ll never live in a tiny house, just the thought exercise of thinking about, how would I downsize? What would I get rid of? It can be really helpful for people and you could go through that process if you wanted to of downsizing. It’s very popular right now with Marie Kondo.

KM: I tried that, it doesn’t work for me.

EW: Sometimes we need hard limits. Like I literally don’t have the space for this thing. 

KM: That’s true.