In this week’s episode I talk to countertop expert and stone enthusiast Lili Morris. She’s been in the cabinet and countertop industry for about 4 years Tennessee (We met on Instagram, where she is @house_on_everett_hill). We talked about various kinds of stone countertops, both naturally formed and man-made. We did get a bit into laminate and solid surface countertops. View the episode enhancements for a list of other countertop materials.
KM: I’m so happy that you are willing to talk to me about countertops because I’ve been having trouble getting someone to come on and talk with them. I don’t know why, it doesn’t seem like a controversial subject.
LM: I don’t think it is. So as far as I go, I’ve been in the industry for a little over four years. I think it is really important because I think that there’s a lot of misconceptions to the average consumer, because people come in all the time and just say, I have no idea what granite is, what quartz is. They don’t really understand different stones and how they work. So I think it’s important for people to know that
KM: It’s definitely important. People are always asking me what is the best countertop for their money. And to me, it kind of depends on what they value. But if somebody said that to you, what would you say?
LM: That depends. It really depends on what you’re looking for. Like for instance, granite is a natural stone. So what I love about granite is the fact that it is unique. So when you have that piece of stone, there’s not a single piece of stone on anyone else’s countertop that is going to look exactly like it, or have the same characteristics. And then quartz is a man-made product. So if you’re looking for ease of use and no maintenance whatsoever, that’s a great option. Just know that it is man-made and because of that it’s not really unique in any way. It’s just very easy and low maintenance.
KM: Right. And that comes in a lot of patterns that mimic stone. So if you want the look you could still get the look but it’s not real. I mean, it is real because it is what it is, but it’s not actually stone.
LM: Right. It is made from actual natural quartz. The way that they do it is they take the quartz crystal and they grind it up into a powder, mix it up with polymers and then lay it out in a mold. So it’s completely man-made from natural elements. It is great for that because for instance, there’s this big gray-and-white thing that is kind of happening everywhere, where everyone wants the gray and white farmhouse look. Quartz is a good way of getting that marble look without the high maintenance of a marble stone, because marble is very high maintenance.
KM: Yeah. I have a two inch Carrara marble countertop that this guy talked me into. I was totally planning on just making my own concrete countertop, so that was my plan. And then someone said, no, you have to go see this guy, Fabrizio or whatever his name was. He was this Italian stone guy, and I am such a sucker for stone. It was like just these slices of stone that come out of the earth. To me, it’s just amazing. So he had this guy in some kind of truckish type thing where he could pick up the slabs and just take them out. They’re like giant slabs of butter. I don’t know, I was very taken with the whole thing. So we ended up with this two inch piece of Carrara marble, where he was saying like, oh, this is your family stone—I’m not gonna try to do his accent—this is your family stone, and your fingers will make their marks and your family will create the grooves and everything. And it’s not finished at all, it’s just raw. So I don’t ever do anything to it, which I probably shouldn’t say. One time I had another Italian man at my house and he was a tile guy. So he kind of pulled me to the side and he said really quietly so my husband wouldn’t hear, he’s like, you really need to clean this area of the marble better. Like he didn’t want to shame me for my bad housewife skills in front of my husband. So that was funny. Cause like the veins of the marble had been collecting dirt and grease and stuff, so it looked gross. I probably have the totally wrong stone for my house, but I do love it when the sun comes in the window and it just kind of shines through the two inches of the marble. And so for those 20 minutes of the morning, it makes me really happy.
LM: And that is ultimately the goal. That’s something that I tell people when they come in too. People go, I don’t know what I need or I don’t know exactly what I want. And I tell people, if you’re not 100% on this, don’t do it. Don’t do it because of price. Don’t do it because you think it’s going to be the best option for your house. Ultimately, you have to be happy with what you’re putting into your house. And if you need to wait a little bit longer to save up for something that’s a little bit more expensive, I think it’s really important because you have to live with it. And if you don’t come into your kitchen every single day, or bathroom, wherever your application is, you don’t walk in every day and just go, oh, I love it! Then what’s the point? Why spend the money in the first place?
KM: Yeah. For my house it wasn’t a very big area of countertop, we didn’t have very much to do. But still it was not in my budget, that was our big splurge for the house. But it’s true that I do think it’s beautiful. Okay, so we got actual granite and then quartz…
LM: Like you mentioned, there’s marbles, and there’s different degrees of marbles. There’s marbles that are pure marble and then there’s marble that’s actually a dolomite, so it’s kind of a mixture. It’s a denser mineral than just straight marble, but it has a lot of the characteristics of marble. So granite shops will try and market that as granite, even though it’s technically a dolomite, but nobody knows what that means. So nobody really says that’s what it is.
KM: What is a dolomite?
LM: Basically it’s a mineral and it is denser than marble, but it’s still softer than granite, so it’s kind of an in-between. It’s a hybrid if you will.
KM: Okay. It’s a stone though, it’s not a reconstituted thing like quartz?
LM: It’s a natural stone, yeah. I’m not sure if you’re really familiar with a lot of colors. Obviously Carrara marble, everybody knows what that is, but there’s a color that’s really popular right now called fantasy brown. It’s a cream and it’s got a lot of this vein in it, it’s a dolomite but it has a lot of marble tendencies. So basically with marble, the things that you look out for are, they can etch due to acids, and they can stain a lot easier than like a granite. They can scratch too, but it just depends on your finish and it depends on what kind of sealers you’re using and stuff like that. So it’s important, I always try and tell people when they immediately zone in on that beautiful, bright white marble with the soft grays. It’s very attractive, but I always say, I just want you to be aware that this is something you have to baby, unless you are looking for that more natural wear and tear. And that actually leads into another type that I think is good, which is soapstone. Soapstone is incredible. It’s really incredible.
KM: Beautiful colors, beautiful shades I think. So tell me about soapstone.
LM: I love soapstone because the number one thing that people ask me when they come in is can I put a hot pot on it? And honestly, soapstone and marble are probably the only ones that I would fully recommend- and really more soapstone than anything. Because, and you may know this, some people do, antique Potbelly stoves actually use soapstone as their cooking surface. So it can take large amounts of heat.
KM: Oh, I did not know that.
LM: Yeah. So that’s the number one thing people ask me. I’m curious how many people actually just put hot pots directly on their countertop.
KM: I know! It’s like why are you putting your hot pot on the countertop?
LM: When are you doing this?
KM: What’s the scenario? So you’re cooking, we got the hot pot, all of a sudden the phone rings and you have to put your-
LM: Right on the countertop. So it’s soapstone, it is the only one that you can actually put… In fact, we had a gentleman come in and purchase just a square piece of soapstone and he bakes his bread directly on it, like a baking sheet. So it’s extremely heat safe, and there’s pros and cons to it. But the best thing about it is that you don’t have to baby it, even though it does scratch. You can actually sand that out very easily on your own without help from anyone. Just use a fine grit sandpaper, and you can buff scratches out of it. Because it’s made out of talc, that’s the consistency of it. It’s very soft, but it’s non-porous naturally. So you don’t have to do any kind of sealing or anything like that.
KM: It sounds like that would be pretty expensive because it’s so great.
LM: It tends to be a little bit more on the higher end, but I think it just depends on what area you’re in, too. The thing that you gotta understand about natural stone when it comes to pricing is it depends on where you are. Because price is determined by of course, like anything, how easy it is to get to it. So if you’re having to order things from Brazil and wait three months, and it’s really exotic stuff, it’s going to be more expensive. I know up North there’s a lot of soapstone quarries. So I would say in that area, you’re going to get soapstone for a great price.
KM: What about the much maligned Formica countertops? Firstly, I have found you cannot kill those. People have some aesthetic issues with it, or I think people are kind of snobby now about it, but you really can’t harm it. I guess you could melt it with a pot.
LM: This may sound terrible because I do love natural stone so much, but honestly, I have no qualms whatsoever with Formica, or laminate countertops.
KM: That’s true It’s a brand name, sorry. Hopefully they’ll be my sponsors after this, I’ll write to them and ask.
LM: So with those, I have had laminate countertops for years.
KM: Yeah. I mean, laminate countertops have been in my family houses or the vacation houses or rental houses or whatever, but it’s really hard to damage it.
LM: It’s an incredible countertop because you can actually cut vegetables right on it without cutting it really. It’s come a long way because they have different finishes and edges and things like that that make it look more like natural stone, which is nice because I think a lot of people come in and they don’t know where to place their budget. What stone or what can I get for what I have? It’s good for the budget for something that looks really nice. You don’t have to spend so much and you don’t have to worry about babying it. If you’re wanting the marble look or something more expensive looking, you don’t have to put so much into it, but then also it’s good for like phase one renovation. I think a lot of people have to do things in phase one, phase two. Contextually what I’m doing with my kitchen, because I just purchased my house in November, I was gung ho going in there, like we’re going to do this renovation. Looking at my budget going okay, well, I can’t afford that yet. But I think that it’s important to realize that it’s not really a step down, it’s something I’m going to be okay living with for a long time. And until I can save up for real wood cabinets and real stone countertops, because it looks incredible and it’s going to fit the budget for now. And that’s what really matters.
KM: Yeah, definitely. And I have friends who are architects, who are waiting for the very particular stone that they want, but their budget isn’t allowing it. So instead of Formica they’ll use plywood, then they’ll put contact paper down over the plywood, like how is that better than Formica?
LM: That seems so high maintenance.
KM: I mean, I guess it seems less permanent. So once you get a countertop, maybe it feels like an indulgence to get a different countertop because you already have one. I don’t know, maybe that’s it.
LM: Yeah. I’ve had people say that they didn’t want to tear out something and put something new in because it’s perfectly good. We just don’t like it.
KM: Yeah. There’s always that. Anyway, it’s a different subject. That’s what I tell people who are thinking of redoing their kitchen before they put it on the market. To me personally, I would rather go in and know that, okay, I definitely have to fix this kitchen and not feel guilty about it. So anyway, that’s just me and that is a different subject. Okay, so what other countertops should we know about?
LM: There are solid surfaces, like Corian and stuff still available. It seems like it is a real dying trend. I have noticed a real shift in that area for sure, whereas laminate has staying power. It seems like solid surface tops are kind of phasing out, but I think those are a really good lower price alternative as well.
KM: Are they lower price? Cause I thought they were kind of-
LM: They’re kind of in between. They can scratch and they can crack, but you can have someone come and repair that or buff the tops completely, and it’s like brand new.
KM: Yeah. It reminds me of high school, reminds me of the eighties though.
LM: Yeah. There’s some newer colors that I’ve seen that have come out that are kind of trying to keep on trend. They don’t have the speckles and things like that, that are kind of what you imagine when you think of it. It’s a mid range. I’d say it’s between laminate and stone.
KM: Okay. So natural stone, why would anybody get that? It’s more expensive. It’s hard to take care of. Is it just for its unique beauty?
LM: I would say that is the number one thing. Granites, marbles, quartzites are the three big things. You have to seal them to keep anything from penetrating them or staining them. But that’s essentially the only maintenance that you have to do to granite. And there’s extended sealers, you don’t have to keep doing it every year, which will take all of the fuss out of it. So it really doesn’t change anything in the long run, I think. If you’re going to compare it to quartz, being manmade, to having this natural stone, if you put an extended sealer on it, then it’s going to be equivalent, and it’s natural and it’s beautiful.
KM: Yeah. And it can be quite a statement in the kitchen.
LM: Absolutely.
KM: Some of it is really stunning. So for a price point on the countertops, I know it depends on the thickness and the finish. But from the ones that we talked about, a laminate countertop would be the least expensive.
LM: Right. And then in most cases, I think that solid surface would be next. Granite is probably next. And quartzites are the highest, mostly because in a lot of places they don’t keep every single color quartz in stock. And so with that, they’re having to order in the material and it usually tends to cost a little bit more.
KM: So it costs more than natural stone, even.
LM: I think most of the time it’s at the mid to high end.
KM: Hmm. Interesting. Now this might be a little woo woo, but I do have a question about the natural stone, cause supposedly crystals have powers or vibrations that they produce. I mean, they come from the earth. So who even knows if that’s accurate, you know what I’m saying? Do you feel like the natural stone, having that in your kitchen, would that change the vibration?
LM: The energy or something? Okay so I’ve never thought about that, but now that you mention it, I mean, I think maybe that is another big part of why natural stone is such a draw, you know, because it is something that has its own… almost life to it. And I think I was listening to one of your other episodes, and the lady was talking about houses having energy. And I was thinking to myself, when you were talking about that I was thinking about that concept. Honestly it is, it’s like you’re either putting something that is manufactured, that doesn’t really have a life of its own, or you’re putting in something that has been formed in the earth over millennia.
KM: Yeah. It’s amazing.
LM: And it’s unique and beautiful, and it has an energy or a life of its own. So probably.
KM: Yeah. I do wonder about that.
LM: I always try and describe to people, because they’ll see the slab on the front and they’ll say, Oh, I want to see all the other slabs. And I’m like, okay, well, let me just put it this way. It’s like a loaf of bread and they’re slicing it. And just like if you get the little air bubbles in your bread, where you’ve got this little hole, it’s going to go through the loaf and it may get a little bit smaller, it may get bigger. So essentially it’s the same thing over and over again, just slightly different.
KM: Yeah. It’s amazing just looking at these images of stone with the section of like what- I don’t know. I’m just amazed by stone.
LM: Oh yeah, me too. And in fact, it’s funny because I collected rocks and minerals and gemstones as a kid. And I remember watching HDTV and stuff. And the buyers would come in, oh, I don’t want this house, it doesn’t have granite in it. And I used to be like, oh, what kind of attitude is that?
KM: You can easily put granite in it, that’s the thing about that.
LM: Yeah. But I remember thinking to myself, why does it really matter that much that you would just walk away from a house? But now that I’ve been able to work with stone and see the different ones every single day, I’m just like, oh my gosh, this is the most incredible stuff. Now I understand why stone is so important. Like I said, there’s alternatives that are amazing, but there’s nothing quite like natural stone, you know?
KM: That is very true. I know. I just can’t get over that. It’s just big slices of stuff. That’s under the earth. We’re just walking around on it and not really appreciate that it’s being… It’s amazing.
LM: There’s so many different things in it. There’s a lot of granite that has purple spots in it, and a lot of people don’t like the purple spots in it, but it’s actually garnet like this is so neat.
KM: Woah, that is super cool!
LM: Yeah. There’s different things in there. Like the giant crystal formations that run through them. And I’m like, how could you not love that? People ask to cut those things out all the time.
KM: People, people. People ruin everything!
LM: The biggest factor that you have to think about when you’re looking at bathroom vanities is the chemicals can actually just essentially destroy the finish more than anything.
KM: Okay, so it’s just the finish. Makes you wonder why you’re putting it in your hair.
LM: Right! Oh my gosh, I didn’t think about that. A lot of, a lot of cleaning supplies can damage the finish too. It will dull it over time.
KM: Well Lily, I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me, it was fun talking to you.
LM: Yes, ma’am.