Cara and I swapped interviews. Our conversation here was about empowering women to DIY. My episode about tackling major renovation projects in your home is out on her podcast MAKE SPACE.

I think her Cara’s mission and classes could be useful to people who are not feeling confident in their design and power tool use abilities.

View episode enhancements for “Empowering Women to DIY with Cara Newhart”.

KM: Cara, thank you for joining me today. I’m intrigued by your podcast, why don’t you tell my listeners a little bit about what your focus is? Cause I think it’s great. 

CN: Yeah, absolutely. So for this to have a little context, I’d like to give a little backstory. I was raised super creative and my dad was a contractor, so I grew up sketching floor plans for fun, crawling around in hot attics, helping him run electrical wires, that sort of thing. And so then towards college, I got pushed towards the business side and eventually found DIY as my creative outlet around the time I got my first home, which is when a lot of people get into that. So at that point I had lost my father to cancer and I was wanting to customize my space and really like to bring all these design visions I had to life. And so I was like, okay, well, I’m just going to dive in and do it. Like I’ve used a drill before, you know, I was raised to know that girls can do anything boys can do. So I am just gonna dive in, teach myself power tools and tackle my spaces. And so that was an amazing journey for me in terms of finding my creativity, honing my skills, finding confidence in myself, and then being able to have a space that truly reflects me. And so that’s kind of what I’m on a mission to help everyday women accomplish themselves is just finding that confidence, learning how to dive in and really embracing home design and DIY as a journey. So that’s what Make Space podcast is all about. 

KM: Well, that’s great. And you specifically focus on women, empowering women.

CN: I think for me, it’s just so personal. Being in a space that’s been so more commonly male dominated, really empowering women to kind of push past that and feel freedom to grow in this traditionally male dominated space is kind of just something that’s been a passion of mine. You know, I’ve really seen for women to DIY, the power of DIY can transform everyday women’s lives, from new moms that have found themselves after baby learning to dive in, to people that have left abusive relationships, because they learned how to use power tools and realized like hey, I can do things by myself, I don’t have to stay. To me kind of finding a creative outlet and turning the tough part of losing my dad into something beautiful and carrying on his legacy. I really want that touchpoint with women because I think they’re underserved when it comes to DIY and home reno. Not as much as it used to be, but yeah.

KM: Well you’re so right though. I mean, not all contractors are male, but I look for female contractors or female subcontractors just to make sure that they, you know, I give them a shot as well, see if that would be a good fit, because we do need to support each other. 

CN: Yeah, absolutely. And just, you know, going to the hardware store and having random middle-aged men ask me if I need help, that don’t work there. And I’m like, do you need help? 

KM: Ugh, do not even get me going. Yeah, do you have a problem? Maybe I can help you with something.

CN: Right? Like, I really know a lot about what you’re looking at. You seem lost. 

KM: I had war trader on the show a while ago and his whole thing was that he was trying to encourage me to go rent a jackhammer and remove part of my basement floor here. I mean, I’m kind of fixated on that because it seems so ridiculous. Not that I can’t- I guess I just don’t want to. I mean, I guess I could, right? I mean I’m not saying I can’t.

CN: It’d be good TikTok content for sure. 

KM: That would be ridiculous. I mean, for me-

CN: No but that’s a good point is you don’t have to do it just because you’re a girl and we have to prove we can do it. It’s like, if you want to, you can, if you don’t want to, outsource. There’s no- like we can do it doesn’t mean we have to do it.

KM: Exactly, that is beautiful. I do feel like it’s so important to support women and to empower them. So what about what you teach is specifically women oriented?

CN: So I think there’s a lot of practical tips from little things like getting a drill and driver set and the driver is really made to help you really drive the screws. So while we can do anything, traditionally our arms have been smaller, so little hacks and tips for women to DIY or even DIYing by yourself, if you’re like me, you don’t have your husband help you because he’s a city boy, he knows nothing about power tools. He’s amazing, and he cooks me all the snacks, but he does not know how to DIY. So it’s like okay, if I’m putting up a giant board by myself under the ceiling, I need to drive a screw through the middle into a stud, and then I can work my way to the edges. And so just little hacks here and there. But also just kind of a lot of mindset stuff, and a lot of approaching it with giving people practical steps where you don’t look at the after photo or the inspo photo on Pinterest and focus on the gap of like, oh, that’s so much work, I could never get there. You start with one project and one tool, and you hone that skill, and then you go to the next project and you buy your next tool, and you build that one at a time. You build your tool set one at a time and you build your skillset project by project, and that’s how you get your confidence and that’s how you become good. So really teaching people to embrace it as a journey. I think I always tell people I’m the ‘and’ in before and after, I’m that huge part they cut out of all the HGTV shows. I’m the part that’s unseen, that’s the work and the tears and the mistakes, but I’m here to help you get through that in a way that’s easier where you don’t have to do it alone. 

KM: That’s so great because it does seem overwhelming. And maybe if someone does just try to drill, they just give up because it seems like this is just, I’m not going straight, I’m not doing it right. There is a lot of learning involved and practice involved. And so starting on a smaller project and getting comfortable, like you said, with the techniques and the tools and everything, that makes total sense. And having the right tool for the job also makes your life infinitely easier in every way, and that’s the same for all aspects of life, knowing what the right tool is for the job. And so do you have, besides the podcast, do you have a business where you do that or do you just educate through the podcast? 

CN: Yeah, so it’s funny. The podcast came about because I was sharing so many, like hands-on step-by-step tutorials on the blog, and I realized there were so many women that weren’t quite ready for that. They needed the basics, they needed what tools to buy and they needed the mindset piece. So my next thing that I’m going to do is build out an actual course called power school, where it’s like the everyday girl’s guide to her six first power tools, where you really walk through a project for each tool and they build on each other and you can kind of learn them. I’m very excited. It’s been taking a while to fully do that, but it’s funny cause I’m mostly self-taught, like I do have the foundation working with my dad, but I really had never used a saw by myself. I was always kind of helped and assisted and coached, working with them. And so teaching myself, there was a lot of hours on YouTube with sweet old men in their dingy garages that just want to talk your ear off for two hours about who invented the miter saw. And so I just want like, you know, maybe a quicker way for women to get that information and to learn hands-on and teach themselves. So that’s going to be my next plan, is the course.

KM: Cool. So are you ready to say what the six power tools are? Or are you waiting to unveil that?

CN: Oh no, I think I’ve got the first few. So it goes power sander, then a drill, then a miter saw – or you can use a miter box if you don’t want to make the investment – And then the three after that are kind of up in the air, but there’s probably gonna be a nail gun in there somewhere because that’s one of my favorite tools to teach people, cause it really is a moment of going from terrified, and then they put a nail in and the look on their face just changes. It’s an instant, like, wait, I can do this. And that shift, that is what I live for, and that is why I teach people. To get to be a part of that, it’s magic for sure. 

KM: Yeah. And also it’s just so much more efficient. 

CN: Yes, oh my goodness, so efficient.

KM: You can really get going with a nail gun. 

CN: And fun, definitely fun.

KM: They do seem scary, though. I can see why people would feel a little bit intimidated by them. 

CN: Oh, for sure. I think that the fear, you know, there’s a healthy piece of that. Obviously it’s there to keep us safe. And so respecting the tool and understanding you have to know how to use it safely is obviously so important, but then there’s a piece of fear that’s us doubting ourselves. And I think that’s the piece I want to help people get over and teach them you can feel that fear, but you gotta do it anyway. Once you teach yourself, once you are confident that you know how to stay safe, you gotta dive in and try it and you gotta do it anyway, even if it’s scary and that’s how you get good.

KM: That is how you get good. So that’ll be a recorded course, it’s not an in-person…

CN: No, video course, eventually I would love to have it in person. That’s my dream is to have a workspace where I can support fellow artists and then also teach power tools. So we’ll see if that happens here in the next few years. But yeah, for now it’s just online. 

KM: And then do you have a business, like in-person sort of business where you help as a consultant? 

CN: Yeah, so that’s all been taken for the most part virtual for me. I do design consultations and then DIY project coaching. So for people that are planning a DIY project, or little things like accent walls or using power tools. So not like something you would necessarily see an architect, a contractor, designer for, but kind of the littler stuff where you maybe don’t know what could go wrong, or you’ve started a project that you’ve had a DIY fail or a situation where you need help, I help with that. And then design consultations, just kind of walking through people’s spaces and giving them ideas on different decorating elements, how to find their style, and kind of what I would do in the space, giving them a game plan. So yeah, I do those over Zoom now instead of in person, which is less fun, but at least we have that. 

KM:, also you can reach people all over the world with Zoom, right? That is a game changer.

CN: It is, it really is.

KM: I know I keep talking about Zoom and how Zoom is so great in some ways. To me, that’s the silver lining of this whole thing is that we realize it kind of opens up our world so much because you can talk to someone, you know, even in Australia or something, it doesn’t have to be anywhere near you. So it’s pretty amazing.

CN: It is, just like human adaptability and the way we just still find connection, even being closed in our houses is beautiful, how we’ve figured that out.

KM: I know, it really is, it’s amazing. Even watching things like school play productions over Zoom, it’s so heartwarming to see that people really, you know, they’re just really adapting, like you say. Another thing that I think is empowering is the idea of finding your style, like finding your voice, kind of, it feels like getting to know yourself a little. Can you talk a little about how you help people do that? 

CN: Yeah. So it’s so funny, cause I think when people think define your style, they think of those adjectives or those descriptive words that come up and they think of certain set, designed pieces, like they think farmhouse or mid-century modern. And I think it used to be kind of, maybe you want it to fit into the trend, or you wanted to go find a designer and get a really specific, distinct style. But I think now in a time when almost everything can arrive on your doorstep in two days, it’s become a lot more about curation and storytelling. And really, I think the overarching theme of interior design progressing to where it is now is like the homes are becoming so much more about the people inside them than about trends. You know, I’m a nerd for design history. So it used to be that the king kind of decreed, like whatever he wanted was whatever the furniture makers made, and it was royalty and, you know, that’s what people wanted. They wanted that aesthetic. And now it’s about telling your story through your space and really setting it up in a way that serves you. So I always start with taking a step back from Pinterest and taking a step back from that huge pool of inspo that we have to draw from, cause we could literally find any style in any iteration almost. But really digging deep into what do you want to get out of your space, and how do you want your space to serve you? And then we start piecing together different elements of what that looks like. And then you can get into like the vibe and then you get into the fun design elements of like, okay, what expresses that vibe? Are we looking for something relaxing? Do we want our space to energize us? Do we just want to feel worthy and excited to look at different pieces or different trends we’ve put in our space where it’s like, oh yeah, I invested in that, it’s beautiful, it makes me happy. And so I think I approached design as a non-designer, in terms of things starting with the inner work. Which sounds like a weird way to design a space, but honestly, I think it’s empowering because people learn to do it for themselves, and then they don’t need me every step of the way. I don’t have to come back in 10 years and redo the space, I get to teach them how to find it in themselves. So that’s my approach. A little abstract, but… 

KM: No, I mean, it makes total sense. And also teaching people how to find- well, you’re teaching them how to DIY their style really. And people change throughout their lives too, so if their priorities or their needs change, then they can recalibrate, based on what you already taught them.

CN: Absolutely. And that’s so freeing. Like if you have young kids, you might have your phase of everything’s Ikea, everything is dispensable and ruinable because those little ones that are hard on things, but then later, those investment pieces can be treated better because kids are older. And so navigating that as well. 

KM: And they have their friends over when they’re teenagers and someone burns a hole in your carpet. 

CN: Yeah. So maybe next phase, maybe college or beyond when we get them out of the house, maybe. 

KM: Yeah, when they finally leave. And personally I feel like, I’ve been thinking about this also. Like what would bring me joy out of my house? I don’t even know. I don’t even know how to find that. But I feel like when I look at someone’s house and I think, oh, this looks like such a grownup house. That is what I want, but I can’t define what that is. Like, what does that even look like?

CN: You know, it’s hard, it’s one of those things where you really have to define kind of like a clear vision for your house. And I think for me, one of the challenges I’ve overcome personally in helping others is that I can respect so many different trends and so many different aesthetics. Before I was just bringing all this stuff in my house that I liked kind of in a vacuum, like individually respected the art of the piece or the texture or color or whatever it is, and then that stuff doesn’t go together. So you have to overhaul your space in a sense of like, okay, what story am I telling aesthetically? And if I’m going to bring in a trend or I’m going to bring in a new piece, how is it contributing to that? I have a really good friend who does this so well, his name’s Anthony, and he has a single inspiration photo with this white plaster wall and a wooden chair and this terracotta vase and a couple other elements. And he uses that as his like single inspo image for his house. So everywhere he goes shopping, he will hold the photo up, he will hold the item up and he’ll say like, can this be a fit for my story that I’m telling style-wise in my house? It’s really the curation and the storytelling approach that gets you that cohesive space that feels like a grownup lives there. Because I know for me, it’s been, it felt kind of like a kindergarten classroom. Like I had so many colors going on and I was like inviting all these things in, cause it’s like the artist in me wants all the fun and to be able to play. 

KM: It’s hard to do, it’s hard to stick to the story.

CN: It is, yeah. So hopefully you just pick a broad story that a lot of things fit versus some of the more clean, minimal, neutral palette where it’s very strict on what will fit and what will not.

KM: Yeah. I mean, I am kind of attracted to that, but then I look around and see all of my stuff. And then I think, well I need that, and I need this, and I’m going to need these books and these prints and these fairy lights. So it isn’t easy. So your podcast, do you have an overarching vision for it, is it something that you think is going to go on for forever? Or do you feel like there’s a finite amount of information that you want to give, or what’s your overall plan? 

CN: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think for me, I just kind of want to just continue exploring design and style until I feel like I have nothing else to say. And luckily with guests, you know, you have so many new voices you can bring on and feature so many diverse kinds of people in different roles at different backgrounds that it’s like, I’m not sure that conversation will ever end, I think it’ll evolve and become maybe more sophisticated, but I think I’m just here til it’s exhausting or til I feel like I have nothing else to contribute to the conversation. So no specific plan in that sense, but I’m still having fun so it’s going strong. 

KM: Yeah. I mean, I guess that’s a hard question to answer, right? I mean, is there a finite amount of information? Are you ever done empowering people? So tell me a little bit about mindset. You brought that up earlier. How do we help women get a different mindset? I get frustrated with that a little bit. 

CN: Yeah, it’s challenging. Especially in a world where society has taught us to play small or be a certain way. I think things are obviously getting better for women, but there’s still remnants of that. I know I was raised in a kind of strict, religious household, I’ve since deviated from that pretty far, but there was a lot of disempowering pieces of my past that I’ve personally had to learn to overcome. But then obviously balanced with my dad teaching me that I could do anything. So it’s confusing, I think, for a lot of women to have that, one day they feel like they can do it, and then the second there’s an issue or a snag, you go into that, like doubting yourself, doubting your skills. So I think really just giving women strategies in terms of like, okay, you have to learn to learn, you are not going to know everything you need to know. And as long as you are comfortable that you can teach yourself whatever you need to know, that’s the biggest piece. Getting people over that hump is like, you eliminate so many excuses. You teach them really that you are empowered by knowledge, and if you are going out and seeking information, whether it’s watching YouTube or, you know, a tutorial that I’ve written, or listening to your podcast, getting that knowledge is how you’re going to be confident. And then once you have that confidence, It’s really taking action. It’s putting that learning and taking the first step in getting that hands-on knowledge. One of my favorite analogies is you could read a book all about swimming, like a huge novel all about how to swim, but until you are thrown in the deep end of a pool, you don’t really know what that feels like or what to do. And so I think, especially with the trades and with hands-on things, and even with design, you have to dive in and do it. And you have to be okay with being really bad at first, but knowing that it’s a journey and you’re going to get good if you commit to practice. So that’s the biggest kind of two-part process for me of mindset is learn and then jump in and do it.

KM: Yeah, I think society has just been set up in such a way that women think we’re supposed to do certain things, we’re not supposed to do other things. And it’s sometimes it’s hard to think that you don’t look ridiculous trying something new, or I just can’t do this. Because there’s hardly ever anything that you can’t do because you’re female. I mean, there are some things I suppose, so before I get all the mail about how women can’t do this or that, for the most part, I just think we’ve been told we shouldn’t be doing something or we can’t do something. And that’s one thing I love about TikTok as well. I’m always talking about TikTok, but there are a lot of women on there that I follow who are like concrete truck drivers, regular truck drivers, or delivery truck, whatever you call them. But just like women out there doing, just like, oh, there’s a woman doing stuff. She’s just a regular person, and she’s chosen to do this thing that’s traditionally male. And you know, we need to stop thinking about things as being traditionally male.

CN: That’s a good point. I think for me identifying that pattern has been like, conceptually, I know that we know that women can do everything- like it’s 2021, of course we can do it too. But seeing it in action and having it be normalized for us to see that happening, or when I say the word contractor, a guy doesn’t immediately pop into your head, it’s like an open-ended thing. And that’s kind of what I want to do. I think in the DIY space, in the home reno space, the first wave of women to get into it really had to kind of fit the mold, had to wear the flannels and the work boots and be tough and be… maybe a certain way to be taken seriously by the male culture that was there. And I think I get to be a piece of maybe the second wave where it’s like, I show up with eyelashes, with hair extensions, in my leggings, my workout clothes, and I am going to go toe to toe with other people in the trades that look maybe rough or fitting that more traditional male aesthetic. I want to challenge that, just even visually I think is enough to get people thinking and get people realizing that it should be normalized. 

KM: Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today.

CN: Thank you for having me, this is so fun. 

KM: It was fun. It’s been great talking to you. And how do people see you and your work? obviously your podcast Make Space where you can download anywhere you get podcasts, I assume. 

CN: Yep, available everywhere. Make Space with Cara Newhart is the best way to type it in. Or you could find me over on Instagram at NeverSkipBrunch, and that’s where I share kind of behind the scenes of all the projects I’m doing. You can find links to everything, like the blog and the show and all kinds of stuff. And I love when people come over and send me DMs. If you hop over and follow me, shoot me a DM and let me know you found me here on the show, and I’d love to connect.

KM: That’s great. And then I know you’re on TikTok too. Is that a public account, or? 

CN: Yeah, it is. It’s NeverSkipBrunch on there as well. And TikTok is so much fun, that’s where I spend a lot of my time. I love TikTok. 

KM: It’s very addicting, it’s crazy. I could literally watch it for hours.

CN: Yeah. I literally had to set the screen time limit where it asks me for a code and then every time I just type it in, it’s like, welcome back. I’m like, thank you. 

KM: Ooh, so nice to be welcomed. Yeah, I know. Anyway, so we’re both having a good time there on TikTok, and I hope more people join us on there. I love that people share their passions and their expertise on there. And, you know, you don’t like some things you don’t have to be following that person. So it’s like, there’s something for everyone there. And there’s a ton of empowerment I find. 

CN: Oh, there really is. Yeah, absolutely. 

KM: Well, thank you very much. I hope we run into each other again really soon.

KM: Tell me about what you do, or tell me what you’re thinking.

TG: I am a nature inspired mentor and a leadership coach, and I come from a very varied background, so I’ll give a little bit about my background to better explain what it is that I do. And why we’re here, what does a nature inspired mentor have to do with home stuff, I’ll get to that. So my background is actually in music engineering and electrical engineering, so I’ve got kind of that engineering brain, but on a very creative sort of side. And I’ve done a lot of things, I’ve worked in high tech, working for companies like RealNetworks and Microsoft, and I’ve also had a production company with large events, and I eventually left the US on tour with Cirque du Soleil. There is an undercurrent there of spirituality that also touches- I used to teach Kabbalah and sacred geometry, and so these things sort of get married together, and I live in a place that’s considered one of the largest spiritual eco communities in the world. It’s called Damanhur, it’s in Northern Italy. And when I moved here originally, which was not planned at all, I thought I would be here six months, and that was 10 years ago. So it’s a very kind of place that captures us. And here we have what is considered the kind of eighth wonder of the world, also. It’s these underground temples of humankind, completely built inside of a mountain, completely done by us with our hands, no super powered, massive tools. Really the original started in the late 1970s by hand with chisels and hammers and pickaxes and stuff. But the thing about this place that really transformed the way that I live my life and the direction in which I’ve taken my life has been a little device called the music of the plants. And it’s a device that allows plants to compose music. And when I first heard this, remember a music engineer who worked in high tech, so the idea of electronics helping us listen to plants was already kind of mind blowing to me. But more than anything, this music, I think because I am a musician, because I do have that sort of music background, and there is a saying in the research world that says that we think of music as a language, but in reality language is a type of musicality and music really came first. And that music allowed me to really hear the plants, to see the plants, to experience the plants. And it took me down a rabbit hole of how do the plants do this? Like, what is plant intelligence? What is plant cognition? What is going on here? And what I discovered on this journey that’s been taking me since basically 2013 has been to really understand how is it that the plant mind, how is it that the way plants make decisions, create ecosystems, create environments helps us in our own built environment. So in the meantime, I have studied biomimicry, so the whole idea of how do we mimic processes and models of nature in order to build a built environment for both social innovation, as well as for the actual physical construction of the built environment. I have a master’s degree in something called vegetal future, plants, social innovation, and design, which is in the school of architecture from the university of Florence. So the idea of sociology, as well as art, as well as design all from that perspective of the built environment. And I’ve worked on a number of projects at the EU level that are around the built environment. Things like, how do we change water loops, how do we change the way that we build certain systems to bring it in. And for me, it all kind of stems from this plant approach. So my practice is really around mentorship. How do we bring in more natural thinking, more thinking like plants in nature, because we are nature. And then the other part of it is, how do we become leaders in this field? So I work with individuals as well as corporations and groups. How do you become a naturally conscious leader? How do I make conscious choices that affect the environment around me, whether it’s socially or physically, and how do I do this in a way that is more in tune with my true nature, with what’s inside of me using science, using spirituality, and more importantly than all of them in some ways, the thing that glues them together to me is the arts, the creativity side of it. How do you use that creative aspect to tap into your own natural creativity, because nature is creative. Nature is always looking for new solutions and new ways of doing it. And the science shows us the benefits of being able to do this. I don’t know if that was like, explainitive enough or… 

KM: No, it’s pretty fascinating. There’s so many questions that I have about the whole topic. It’s just very mind expanding to think about this differently this way. But to stay within the confines of the podcast, I guess we’re going to have to stick with this in a- what does plant intelligence mean to let’s say the average homeowner who is planning their landscape, let’s say. I mean, it’s very mundane it feels like, but those choices seem like they are more important than perhaps we really think about. 

TG: They really are. And I think that that’s the aspect that is most exciting as we become much more plant aware, as we strip off sort of our blinders to this plant blindness that most people suffer from. We start to look at- let’s take that landscape that you were talking about. So today, most of us will think about the landscape from the perspective of either beauty, how do I create something that’s aesthetically pleasing? And we think of it as kind of like decoration. But in reality, those plants are doing way more than that. And if we take the time to create these relationships with the plants, we have the ability to create a garden that not only does it create beauty, which beauty usually inspires awe, and awe has been scientifically shown to actually enhance our wellness. So that’s one train, right. Which is yes, that beauty aspect is important. It’s not a shallow, I just want my house to look nice so then my property values are high. It’s also that that beauty inspires me in my day-to-day life and that inspiration creates a certain chemical reaction inside of my body that allows me to move towards wellness. That’s the first thing. The second part is connecting with those plants and thinking about those as an ecosystem, as a way that they work together, the plants are actually all coordinating together, also has the ability of one creating pockets of places where the plants, specifically certain kinds of trees, but also certain kinds of grasses can give off a series of chemical signatures and a series of different chemicals that enhance our wellness. Just 20 minutes taking a walk in nature, in a natural environment can actually lower my cortisol levels by up to like 50%. And it also inspires a whole series of different types of what’s called natural killer cells and terpenes. There’s a whole series of interactions at a chemical level between myself and my plants. So when I design that landscape, if I think of it more as an environment that is connected to me, as an environment that I can peruse, that I can spend time in, that encourages me to be there, then that reaction. The other aspect of it is even just looking out the window, it’s been shown that in hospital patients, for example, when you look out and you see a tree, when you see nature, you actually heal faster. So again, all of these health benefits come from that interaction. Plus, if you go a step further, and again, this all depends on who you are and what interaction level you have with plants, you can actually get the direct benefit from a more spiritual level, from a psychological level that’s beyond just that wellness, but really about that creativity that comes when I’m immersed in nature, when I spend time in nature and especially when it’s nature that’s outside, right there, so close to me. Because one of the problems, for example, in a study called the nature of Americans is the fact that Americans think that nature is out there, it’s far, it takes a long time to get to, so we don’t experience those health benefits because we don’t spend time in nature. But if I build it into my landscape, if I create those systems that also can mirror the harmonies and the systems that go inside of my home, I now have the ability to create a self-generating positive, mental and physical health system between myself and my home.

KM: Hmm. So how do you do that? Is there an easy answer for that question? Probably not. 

TG: Well, I mean, it’s not a hard question. A lot of it is related to where you are, right? So native plants really connect into the nature of place. If you look at something like the living building challenge, and the standards that have been created there, when it talks about some of these petals, one of those petals is connection to place. So what are the plants that are connected to that place? How do I create a landscape that’s not just a bunch of exotics and cultivars that have been put into this, but in reality, something that naturally blends into the overall environment, something that is connected to that place, because that will ground and root me into place. So you want to first start with the idea of what is the place that I’m in? What is it that I want to connect into where I am? Then of course, based on your own experiences. Are you more of a gardener and you want to create something that’s a landscape that’s more edible. Are you instead somebody who’s looking for something again, more beauty. I mean, I think these are personal choices that you want to go to, but the idea is to start from that perspective, from the perspective of what is the relationship that I want to have with this landscape and what is it that I wanted to evoke so that then I choose the plants and the companions and the overall design that fits into that, kind of looking at it as an extension of myself.

KM: Okay, so starting off with native plants for your area. I mean, I always encourage people to do that anyway, because the native plants are already there for all of the animals that naturally live in your, and the insects and all the rest of it. This is maybe kind of an out there question, but what happens when you combine an exotic plant with native plants? If there are a bunch of native plants and they’ve established a relationship with each other – I don’t even know if this is how it works – then you introduce, like you saw a pretty shrub, let’s say, that is not native. And then you just introduce it to the group. I mean, do plants reject other plants, or do they welcome other plants, or what happens?

TG: So again, here we go back to the idea of, are you doing this- think of it for humans for one second. I have a group of friends that we’re all sort of getting along. We grew up together, maybe we all knew each other, we’ve been there. In comes somebody else, maybe somebody who’s a foreigner, somebody that maybe I met at work or something like that, and I introduced you to the group. The question is always again, how do you introduce this plant into this existing group? Is it a plant that is not just exotic but also invasive, like is it a plant that we know already in this environment causes harm? And that’s the first question we should ask ourselves, because no matter how beautiful the plant may be, if the overall ecosystem is harmed, you’ve just now negated all of the benefits that you’ve created in this landscape. So that’s the first thing to ask yourself is, what do we already know about this plant before introducing the plant? Is it hostile? Is it going to work? And more than anything, even if it’s an exotic, do the requirements fit the requirements of the overall? Because if it’s a plant that requires lots of water, for example, you’ve got a garden that’s based off of a drought situation and low, again you’re just now introducing problems that are not going to fit. So that’s the first thing. And in those cases, plants are pretty- so plants usually tend to try to find mutualisms to try and be mutually beneficial and to create. But of course, if you have a situation where the harm happening to the overall ecosystem is greater than the benefit to the one species, then yes, you’re going to have a war going on there and somebody is going to get hurt, let’s say it in that aspect. So you really wanna introduce plants that are going to somewhat play together. Now, here we have kind of differing thoughts, right? There’s the kind of more gardening, more scientific aspect, which is about looking at all of these characteristics that we just talked about. Another one is the more you could say shamanistic perspective, indigenous perspective, which is about a relationship and looking at what the relationships are and connecting into your plants to ask, okay, I feel called to bring this non-native species into this overall ecosystem, where should it go so that they can have the best benefit? Can it go? And being okay with listening and trusting your own intuition of the relationship you have with this landscape. Because if you build this landscape based on the things that we just talked about, remember you have this benefit. You’re now a part of the landscape through your watering, through the choice of plants, through the actual location, you have become an active part of this ecosystem. So if you do want to introduce another part of the ecosystem, like a friend that comes into your group of childhood friends, if you listen to your friends and you kind of have a pulse on what’s going on, you’ll know the right way to introduce. So part of also this work and the reason why it is so beautiful to do it around your home is that it is a part of a way for you to reawaken inside of yourself that deep nature connection, that deep connection to yourself. So that you start to, I guess you could say understand yourself better. You start to trust yourself better, and you are listening. Which is essential for real leadership in whatever area that you’re in, is that listening. And you will hear from the ecosystem where, how should I like all of these things and not just doing it as a priority. One of the problems that we as humans try to kind of do is we jam our desires into things because we’re afraid of like, oh, what if they get rejected, so I’m not even going to ask, I’m just going to put it in there. That’s going to cause you a war. Be okay with the idea that the ecosystem might not be able to handle it. That may be a beautiful plant that should go in a pot, somewhere in another aspect of the landscape. That doesn’t mean don’t introduce, but don’t include it into the ground. Maybe keep it in a nice pot in somewhere else. Maybe put it into, you know, something that stays inside the home, like be open to that relationship with your land. 

KM: Hmm. How do you communicate that desire to be in harmony with all your plants if someone else is designing it, or do you really have to design it yourself, if you know what I mean. 

TG: Well I mean, having a landscaper, having somebody who’s a landscape architect, a landscaper who comes in and helps with you could be really great from that practical side that you as yourself as a consumer might not have. But just like anything- and you know, you see this in architecture, we tend to relinquish our control. We tend to say, I don’t know anything so let me out, I don’t have a value to give. And that’s the other piece of it is you do have a value because you have the intuitive connection value, which is super important. So instead of just looking at something that the landscaper or whomever it is that you’re working with, the designer puts in front of you and blindly saying yes, take a second with it. Take a second with it to like take that design out into the space that you’re about to create, sit down with it, allow yourself to kind of be mindful for a second and bring yourself into the place that you’re in. And again, trust that your intuition will give you some indications. Yes, this feels right for what I am for what I’m creating and what the relationship I want to have. Be a part of the process, rather than just kind of closing your eyes and saying they’re the experts, they will tell you. And more importantly, in the choosing of the person, if you do want to go down this path and create a landscape that really is a reflection of your own essence, your own health, then you want to pick somebody that you can have that conversation with that understands your desire, and who’s going to present it to you in that way. Because they’re going to come back and say, okay. We’re starting to see this even more: I worked with an architect on a biomimicry project, and when he came to the location, we spent probably hours just connecting to the space, just connecting to the overall goals of what we want this building to be, of what we want the message of the building to be. For example, this is an area that has a lot of water flowing through it. And we wanted that water, but it’s not necessarily close to the ocean or anything like that. It’s a mountain area, but we wanted that sense of water, we wanted that sense of flow. We wanted the sense that all those pieces- So you already communicate that when you say, I want my landscape to have this energy, this aspects of it, these types of healings, and you could even communicate like here’s some of the deficits that I as a human being have, or that my household needs, and could we pick plants that help enhance those types of characteristics. And here you get into the ability to really expand who you are through this garden. I get to expand my own perceptions. For example, there are some really beautiful healing gardens that are created in hospitals that are more based in smells, that are based in tactile pieces, that are based in other things than just vision, because we want to expand our other senses, and some people might not be able to have their vision completely in that aspect, and you still want them to enjoy it. So that’s the other aspect, is this a garden for you to look at? Are you going to be looking at it from the window? Is this going to be instead a landscaped area that is more I’ll be sitting out there and maybe closing my eyes and going into a meditative state? Is this more like my stress release? So I need something that I can travel through, that I can walk through. All of these types of elements, the more we get in tune and we don’t think of it as just pretty and out there, but we think of it as a function. Like what is the function? Because everything in nature has a function. That’s the reason why nature creates no waste situations, because giving everything a function means that you’re able to create systems where the waste of one becomes the fuel of the other. And so if we think of that garden, or that landscape area around the home as a function of our, for our family, for ourselves, for what it is that we want to live in our house, then it becomes way easier to work with a professional and to discover together what those functions are.

KM: Yeah. I mean, I love the idea of sense in the garden and experiencing the garden as you walk through, what do you feel, what brushes up against you, what scents are released at that time. So I definitely am intrigued by what you’re saying, and thinking about how I can improve my own garden. Cause every spring you’d go out and see what survived the winter. And I have some opportunities to introduce some new plants this year. I have a question though, about plant intelligence. So how do you define that? When you say plant intelligence, what does that mean?

TG: Yeah, so this is somewhat of a controversial subject, which is great. That’s the beauty of it right, is that we tend to attribute intelligence to certain types of species. We think of certain species as being able to be intelligent because we use these certain criterias. Now in general, intelligence really kind of comes back to the idea of being able to modify my behavior and my input based on something that happens in the environment. I’m aware of what’s happening, I remember, and I’m able to make a decision based on what is happening. And that’s really the kind of base criteria that we can use for intelligence. Of course, we can go up more, like some people will say tool building and tool using kind of things, but plants do use tools, it’s just not with their hands like we do with humans. So we won’t get into some of the more complicated ones. We’ll just go into the simple, which is again, I’m aware of my environment, so I know everything that’s around me. I can then take in that input and I can compare it to a memory that I have about that. I don’t know if that particular kind of nourishment is actually going to cause me harm, so I’m going to reject it. This pollinator is good, so I’m going to open my flower. This guy over here instead is coming in, is going to create harm, so I’m going to release some chemicals. These are all changes to my behavior that I make based on it. And that’s kind of the basic definition of plant intelligence. 

KM: Hm. I know there are plants that try to repel certain insects by releasing certain- I don’t even know how it works to be honest, cause I’m just an architect. Is there like a list of different, like the intelligence of plants or the types of intelligence of plants or is it just something that they all have the awareness that you mention? I can’t even express what I’m thinking.

TG: I think the question is, do we have levels? And I think this is a totally valid question because it’s the way we think about humans, right? We have IQ tests or we have this that kind of goes from the idea. The truth is though, is that intelligence usually spans across different aspects. I can be super street smart and be really book dumb, to a certain extent. I can be vice versa, I can have some kind of mix of the two. And in reality, plants in that aspect are the same. There’s some plants that are really great in rocky environments, but if you throw them into, I don’t know, a grassland, they have no idea what’s supposed to be happening or how to survive or how to use this type of environment. Plants have- one thing that they’ve learned how to do, and I fundamentally believe the humans can get there too and it was something we’d lost, but that we have the ability to regain is plants actually can use lifetimes in order to learn certain things, so there’s much more of a trial and error that happens. Some kind of glitch comes into the system, you have an ecosystem that’s sort of found a balance and then something happens, what’s called a disturbance happens. And the plants look at this disturbance and say, okay, what do I do? If I know what to do, it triggers it. If I don’t, let me try something. And sometimes they win and sometimes they die off. But even plant death is way different than human death because maybe a leaf died off or maybe just the flower died off, or did it go all the way down to the roots or maybe I lost half of the plants, but there’s this propagation that happens. I go to seed, I send, I encode all this information in and we do know that plants recognize their kin. We know that trees, for example, are able to know which of the trees around them, what are the saplings that are growing are actually literally their kin, that come from them. They know which ones are family, which ones are direct children. And so there are these types of relationships that grow out in different systems that allow them to sort of more diverse[?] than we are, because we’re a little bit too worried about kind of keeping the status quo, when plants are like, oh, you’ve got a disturbance? Let me go back to my memory bank. Is this something I’ve dealt with? Oh, no, I’ve never dealt with it. Okay, let’s just try something and see what happens type of aspect. And I think science right now is trying to understand a lot because there has been a really big resistance to calling plants intelligent, because if you really think about it – and think about it from the landscape we’re talking about – If I build an edible garden, you’re eating intelligent beings. We already kind of struggle with this concept when we think about it from an animal perspective, but imagine the vegans trying to deal with the idea that-.

KM: I know, that’s why I can’t think about it. What could you eat? I don’t know. 

TG: It’s actually not about what you can eat, it’s about how you eat. The whole perspective is that, I was just listening today to this study being done, this work that’s being done by [?] and the scientist was explaining how the oak tree actually creates their acorn, and there’s a large part of that acorn that is completely given to the squirrel. Like there’s a tiny part that is about housing the taproot, the actual kind of seed that can become a new oak, but the rest of it is just meat that the oak creates because they know that the bigger the payload, in other words, the more amount of kind of food that’s in there, the farther the squirrel will take it away. So that’s how plants travel. That’s the intelligence that we don’t think about it, but that’s how they hitchhike rides and that’s pretty clever. They’ve created a system that some kinds of squirrels can actually pull the taproot out. In other words, they can pull out the seedy part and throw that down so that that starts to grow and then eat the rest. So they sacrifice a part of their bodies in order for their children to grow. And when we start looking at things like this, we start to realize, wait a minute, I do that too. It’s a natural process of being a mother or a father. I sacrifice parts of my life for my child. And that’s a good thing, like that ensures the race. And so I can relax into it and not feel like I’m giving things up. And so when we’re thinking about it from a food perspective, we’re realizing that plants are sort of doing this because the seeds move around. They’re able to grow in new locations, they’re able to travel. This is how they travel. So it’s about changing our relationship with what does alive mean. And again, the food for one is the waste of another and vice versa. And so we move in this aspect, but it’s all about then finding that right balance. 

KM: Hm. Well, back to the landscape. So practically speaking, it seems like the idea behind deciding what to plant at your house to bring wellness to you and beauty to your house is to start with plants that naturally grow in your area. So as you say, if you’re in a Rocky area, that would be one set of the native plants in that area, or if you’re by the ocean, there’s another set of plants that would naturally grow there. So starting off with native plants sounds like a place to start. And then where should they go from there? Should they ever look for anything else, or do you look and see what is growing happily in your neighbor’s garden, or? 

TG: I mean, I think that there is obviously this balance that needs to be. One is the natural, again, the natives as much as possible. The other aspect is again, connection. Cause going back to the human example of, I have my group of friends and I bring in somebody else, that doesn’t mean that that new foreign person can’t become just as good a friend to this whole group, because if that person, whether that’s my partner or just a really good friend, has a different series of characteristics that can be introduced into the system and that could then benefit the entire of the system. So for sure, creating a connection, like when you feel like you go to a store and you see this plant that really captures you, and you feel super connected. Then you know that connection is triggering that wellness inside of you. So happily bring it home, and then from there, decide what is the right choice and the right place. And I think that then again, that’s where we talk about function. What is the function that I’m trying to accomplish? So that’s I think the next level. One is looking at natives, but before that, the first step is really to think about, what is the function that I want to carry out? How am I going to enjoy this landscape? How do I want to enjoy this landscape, and thinking a little bit of who do I want to become? Because remember, the landscape is growing with you. It’s morphing, it’s changing, it’s evolving just the same way. You know, nature really has one goal which is to evolve. So if we’re both evolving together, I don’t only have to think about where this landscape or this garden is going to help me today, but I want to think about where it’s going to help me tomorrow. What is the direction that I want to take as I grow older in this house, as my children grow up, whatever happens and whatever I want it to do. So one step is function first, think about that. The second step is what are the natural kind of, not natives in the sense of individual plants, but what are the natural relationships that exist between plants when I go to plant this landscape. In other words, I don’t just want to put in native plants that don’t necessarily connect together. I want to think about, do I have lavender and sage growing, and thinking about also kind of from a permaculture kind of perspective of also what are the relationships? You have heights, you have water density, you have all kinds of things. Don’t forget about the mosses. Don’t forget about different types of trees. Don’t forget about the shrubs. Think about it from the perspective of a rich environment. And I think one of the aspects that also sort of holds us back, and this is another place to kind of look at is, we as humans – and I hate to say this a little bit – especially as women, we’re afraid of our own wildness. So we think of a perfectly manicured garden. But that’s another aspect of looking at saying, where am I trying to control this garden rather than letting it grow into its wildness as a representation of my own boldness, my own wildness, the directions that I myself want to take. So that’s the other aspect, is don’t look at it all as like necessarily carefully manicured and maintenance that I have to do, but think about it as the direction in which I want to grow. What are the characteristics I myself want to embolden, and where is it that my sense of education and vision is holding me back from allowing the garden and allowing my entire landscape around to take the shapes that they need to take in order to better represent life and better experience that. You mentioned earlier, if I walk through it, what brushes up against me? How many gardens do we have nothing that brushes up against us because we cut it all back? But we cut it all back from an aesthetic training that we’ve had, that we haven’t allowed ourselves to truly kind of let go of our hair and just say, wait a minute, what does this garden want to be? How does that plant really grow? So it’s not just natives, but it’s the relationships and the way that they grow, like where is the lichen growing in there? Where do I leave the rocks so that the lichen is exposed, rather than trying to power wash it off because it looks like there’s something growing on there. Where is the Moss creating the dampness that holds and glues together two different types of plants? These are all the little pieces that allow us to start to let go and realize that for our house to become a real home, it has to be a safe place where we can express our true self. 

KM: I don’t even know what to say, cause that’s a beautiful statement. That’s a beautiful way to wrap this all up, I think. And that’s so much to think about. And just as an aside, my garden has been called exuberant by my friendly neighbors and probably other things by my non-friendly neighbors. It is just wild. It is very wild in a not very wild neighborhood. So I can feel better about that now, feeling like I’m tapping into my inner wildness and just letting my hair flow. Cause I love it because to me it’s like experimenting out there, and every year it seems like there’s a different group of plants that are taking center stage or that are getting all the attention, you know, that are in their prime it seems like, just beautiful. And then the next year I expect them back and they’re not the same, they’ve moved around the garden. They’re just not as, they’re being overshadowed by something, you know? So it’s always evolving and yeah, I love that idea of the wildness. 

TG: And isn’t that a beautiful metaphor, even just for your own life? Some years or some moments, I have certain characteristics that are going to take front and center because that’s where I am in my evolution, my personal transformation. And at other moments, those are gonna kind of recede back. They’re going to be overshadowed by others and I’m going to let these other pieces come back. And none of that is wrong. And that’s I think the other aspect of what these types of landscapes, when we really connect into them, they can teach us. So it becomes a healing garden, it becomes a teaching garden, because now as I sit there and I watch- there’s a beautiful book, which unfortunately the name eludes me right now, of a man who spent a year sitting in the same location at a local park. When he would walk to and from work, he spent one year going to the exact same location and seeing the transformation that kept happening, and how things like you just said, take center stage here, then those kind of go back and these take instead. And that’s a great representation. I use the word kind of like reflection of who you are and what’s happening inside of you as well as inside of your home. 

KM: That’s very exciting. Especially because now everything, at least here in Massachusetts is budding and coming back. And I feel like I can hardly believe it’s really happening, but it is, it’s really happening. It’s time, it’s April. It feels too early, but I’m just confused about time right now. So it’s time and it’s exciting to see my old friends come back. We’ll see what’s in store for the year.

TG: I look forward to hearing about it. 

KM: Yep. I’ll send you a photo. But thank you so much, this has been, I could talk to you forever, but I don’t have forever unfortunately today. So thank you, thanks for sharing all that information. 

TG: You’re very welcome. 

KM: I’m going to go out and chat with my plants this morning, see what’s going on with everyone waking up. 

TG: Yay, music to my ears. 

KM: Thank you. 

TG: My sincere pleasure.